I have a dream... Scawen mails me a development version of this sim and all the physics tools, for me to see how the tyres are modelled and to observe current data... Then being able to apply changes and test them out. Sadly I tend to wake up before I lock my brakes... illepall oooerrr..

I'd say LFS would benifit if a handfull of people get to tweak the physics parameters / curves. I doubt Scawen is handing out the 'stuff' though

I kind of agree with the topic starter.. The best FF setting is 'out of the window with the damn thing'.. While that is harsh and potentially dangerous for innocent pedestrians outside I find it hilarious that the general tone is:
1- Without FF you can't have a good sim experience
2- Drifting is bad

Sadly, FF today is poor. At best. I can totally imagine turning it off and ripping the motor out. FF as an idea is great but it can't match real life wheel speeds and smoothness. Lets hope the G25 will be a step up.. It hinders your car feel more than it helps, just because of the *fact* that it can't keep up. Even if one likes it, which is fine, you fall in a big trap claiming FF is realistic. I don't want to use something that I can easily calculate / work out to be incapable of reproducing the forces and speeds of a real wheel. Using FF therefor means you KNOW you are getting forces and speeds that aren't what the sim really wants your wheel to do. I much rather have no feedback than wrong feedback.

Secondly, drifting isn't bad. In general the only bad thing about 'simracing' is the share of 'shouting' racers. Pointless topics in forums, wreckers, and names like 'Jimbobstrailerpark' are signs of dubious behaviour. So the 'fly' people that w@Nt t0 DR!Ft aren't necessarily any worse than those who try to be more economic with their rear tyres..

I must say the average post intelligence has dropped.. I mean why on earth start a thread that you want a c64 version of LFS.. (I could mention about 100 more cases..)

Anyway the point being that this topic starter actually has a point and people fail to see it..

Yo guys,

As one does after another ISI physics dissapointment, one fires up LFS and even though not perfect, enjoys the 'much better nod in the right direction' that it is. Now I find LFS, even with the latest patch, still to be too 'dangerous' and easy to oversteer the RWD cars, but for yonks I've fitted the front with 'normal' tyres and the rear with 'super' ones and that works really well for me.

Sometimes I don't want to be all serious and do things like tune the setup for maximum tyre longevity, tuning gears so each corner has the perfect gear for exit, not to mention doing 100 laps to improve your consistency.. Then I go in 'wannabee' Tiff Needell mode and just wreck a few sets of rear tyres. As Tiff does, I realize its rather pointless from a practical point of view, but on the fun scale you just NEED your weekly sideways fix...

Sadly I am not quite Tiff but I don't think many videos or replays involving 'drifting' are shown on these forums by people who agree that drifting is pointless and /or by people who use road type car setups which aren't oversteery if you drive normally at all, well relatively for LFS that is..

So here are some replays and the car setup, I hope some of you will enjoy them at least a bit..

/Niels

Edit: I used 720 degrees of actual steering lock on my non force feedback (and currently non bungee non spring) wheel. The gear ratio's are too short for a real roadcar as well but the suspension, tyres and diff are relatively 'safe' ..

Last edited by Niels Heusinkveld, Mon, 24 Jul 2006 23:32.

It is 'better' than before but you just feel they got the most out of an inferior physics engine rather than making a realistic sim.

This short lfs video is another good point against ISI.. Be it GTR or GTR2 or some of the more modern GTL cars, it is just impossible to steer your way out of donuts while keeping the power on. As if the front tyres and their steering doesn't have anything to do with the equations..

Do some donuts in GTR2 and apply opposite lock.. You'll do donuts.. exactly the same ones, only if you really let go of the gas will something happen. With LFS, also with slicks, the big round thing in front of the driver actually does something. I don't yet think LFS is 'great' but it certainly behaves better in many situations.

That said, GTR2 seems drivable and more believable... but the flaws and 'on limit' behaviour are just not right.

Don't forget that current FF wheels are totally incapable of delivering the force and most of all SPEED of real cars.. A current DFP won't manage one turn per second, in fact its closer to 2 seconds per wheel turn, where in real life it can go up to 3 or 4 revolutions per second just by the suspension geometry and tyre alligning forces..

Only when a really good FF wheel comes can you truly judge FF imo.. Now you might like one sim's FF more than the other but the chances of this having anything to do with the quality of the sim are slim..

These days you sadly can't expect to play 'modern games' on slowish computers, especially if they have no dedicated 3D accelerator card.

I would say you're likely do be a danger online with only 15fps as:
- you can't have good control at that framerate
- you will 'warp' more to the other players at low framerates..

I once did about 40 laps.. of the Nurburgring, but that was back in the GPL days when I was even more silly.

What I found odd was.. I think you can test this by using the centring spring and just try without a game. The force required to go to a certain angle, and then I can let go a lot of my hand force while the wheel remains in the same position.. It seems only when some sort of friction is overcome does the wheel turn back.

With a 'real' spring, the wheel will move towards the center as soon as you let go. OF coruse you shouldn't use the centering spring for sims when you have an FF wheel but it does highlight issues in tests like this.

Might sound silly but I'm not convinced the FF steps do anything on a DFP at least (and prolly all FF wheels)..
Force comes in big lumps, I doubt the wheels have as much as 16 steps of actual force. The static friction in a DFP is considerable so before the force has overcome the friction, you're certainly more than 1/128 or 1/256 of force away from the previous experienced force. 1/16 could well be too optimistic as well..

I'm up for some sort of scientific test to determine if you remotely 'like' those Fast and @#$ed up movies.. And if the outcome is anything more positive than "I'd rather put 220V on my privates than watch those" your LFS license should be taken away.. forever!

Nail on the head.. When it comes to simracing I want the most realistic controls. Its been 8 years since I used 'standard' pedals, and those where Thrustmaster T2s, arguably better than most of todays pedals.. Recently the Dutch Groningen Gang (tm) made some new pedal sets with a 50kg force sensor as brake sensor which is awesome.

I see 'simracing' as a fun hobby but the hardware and software isn't always worthy of the term 'sim'.. Its not easy to get right and even sims like LFS do certain things wrong, but it can be a lot of fun and a good 'nod in the right direction'. Once you tried 'my' pedals, as the other 4 guys who made a set will testify, its in another league.. It really makes you go 'hmmmmmmz' when you reach for your plastic logitech.

The g25 does look more promising, the single transmission probably means 1:15 or 1:20 at most making the wheel potentially quicker and less 'hard' to turn.

BRD, well, they're weird.. one product every 5 years, each product seemingly being 7 years in development, and they aren't bust? Very strange.. Lets hope their wheel is good but at that price not many will be able to get it. VPP is going to make a decent FF wheel.. that only turns 270 degrees so thats not ideal.. Seems that its worth waiting to see how the g25 'handles'.

Oh yes I'm well aware of the forces required in a real racecar.. I read some article on indy500 cars and the required steering torque.. That translated to more than 13kg of 'steer right' force (i.e. 6.5 kg per arm) to go straight (due to the stagger / odd aero) and about 10..11kg steering left in the turns..

That is huge and I would only last 2 laps. (if that!) I remember a F1 race where, I think, Cristian Albers's powersteering cut out after a few laps. He stepped out of the car more dead than alive after the race, and thats a trained F1 driver..

Compared, current FF wheels don't come close to simulate non powersteering single seaters. The main problems with current FF wheels are:
- lack of available force
- 40:1 or worse cog ratio. The motors often specced at 3000rpm, with the substantial load of the system probably never reaching more than 2400rpm That would mean 2400/40 = 60rpm = 1 rotation per second which seems to be a bit less in practise with a DFP. This is much too slow. the suspension geometry alone can make a steeringwheel turn close to 4 times per second! That is a bit extreme but its clear that 1 per second is far from reality.
- I think... not sure that when you reduce FF strength you also reduce the speed at which the wheel will turn by itself. (less force, less torque, less wheel acceleration)

I do like to have a workout. But I once used a TSW wheel with exra stiff springs. That was a nice workout without the inertia problems that go with FF.

That is a big part of the problem.. You shouldn't have to 'tweak' FF.. it should be on or off. Spring effects are not FF so if the poor wheel requires some of that to work 'believable' its higly suspicious (sp), and certainly not realistic anymore..

I find it surprising that so many seem to think that a Logitech or M$ wheel provides GOOD force feedback. These are really crudedly developed wheels with huge wheel / motor inertia, very notchy feel and by FAR not enough power to move the wheel quickly enough. Just by looking at how these wheels are put together I would never say they are a realistic addon to the sim!

One of the more scary evolutions in the simracer is that he (or she) somehow started to like FF along the way, not realizing that its a much compromised technology (in current wheels) that more likely disconnects you from the physics than connects you to it.

Recently I have tried a few more FF wheels:
- Momo racing
- red momo thingy
- DFP
- old TM FF wheel

I notice that to be any sort of usable, you can't use a lot of steering lock. LFS with 900 degrees and I'm fighting the damn wheel as it simply doesn't turn quickly enough by itself and has so much inertia. I was really looking forward to using a DFP but after a few days I put it back in the box. With a little over 200 degrees of lock, the other wheels where more usable. Still a 'fight' more than a cooperation, but at least the lack of wheel rotation sort of makes the steering 'faster'..

Of course a total steering range of a little over 200 degrees is certainly not realistic, if you use a more or less realistic front tyres steering lock in the car setup..

I would go as far as to say that you can't judge a sim with todays FF wheels. Its another subjective parameter thrown into the equation as the wheels can't follow what the sim tells them to do and people use loads of different damping / force parameters to mess it up further.. I think there could be a really good FF wheel, and its not the idea that is poor, its the execution you can realize with ~100 euro that is just way sub par.

I use no FF (as you might've guessed by now..) and have zero problems 'feeling' cars (except in ISI as those physics are seriously messed up) and are much more confident and comfortable driving fast without FF gettin in my way.

What worries me is that people seem to like FF ''effects" above realism. Sure I really found the physical forces to be 'cool'. It becomes a bit more of a workout and in some situations it even does the 'right' thing. I think its dangerous to settle for 'cool' when it is SO easy to see that the wheel simply doesn't have the power (amongst other issues) to be 1:1 with what the sim tells it. Until there is a wheel that does, you simply don't get real force feedback, which will disconnect you from the sim, no matter how much you like it..

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=239373

Tristan, real life has a lot less oversteer than LFS, don't forget...

I did find the line very odd and though it might slide at 2..3 secs in that slomo vid but at about 6 seconds where he turns in there IS no sliding at all, I really don't think you'd need telemetry (they can mess with that too ) to see that. The car reacts normally to what the front wheels are doing. Schumacher then straightens the wheel for no reason.

I have no 'idols' in racing, Schumy is really really fast and has a 'nice' record to prove this. So I'm not really anti schumi at all, I mean you can't change the face you're born with..

Tristan, the speed seems VERY low indicating the car was NOT sliding. It seemed to be rolling. He was behind his fastest time took a really weird 'inside line' then seemed to lock the brakes a tiny bit after which he was doing less than 20mph, rolling, steering left to go wide and then steer right too late to make the turn.. Anyway with this punishment nobody will likely do something as dubious as this for a while to come.

Though I haven't read all posts so this might've been mentioned.. In the press conference he said he didn't WANT to backup coz he didn't know what was comming. However with the substantial steering lock they run he'd only have to back up 50cm in order to be able to drive away.

The speed of the car was much too low to mark the last 'steer left' action as 'opposite lock'. He's a baaaaad actor and sport.

Change the front tyres to 'normal' ones.. That helps a lot. In fact, just try the one attatched..

Its a lot different and might make you initially go 'euuww understeer'.. but I'd say its a lot more realistic than with super front tyres.

It depends on what your electronics do. Any electronics that you can use DXtweak to set start / end 'deadzones' will make sure you can't overshoot this value. Most custom USB electronics don't autocalibrate so you just calibrate to a force you wish and that will be your max during racing..

updated first post..

I don't think you can install them in DFP pedals. You really move out of the 'toy zone' with a brake pedal that can be pressed up to 50kg! No way a logitech would survive! Its also not really suited for use behind an office chair unless you have a strong guy to hold your seat straight and at the same position..

Last edited by Niels Heusinkveld, Tue, 2 May 2006 18:54.

Well, the first 2 batches where about 25 orders. I'm now at just under 10..

My suppliers got more expensive and it costs a bit more time than estimated.. Plus less units to spread import taxes and shipping over, means the price goes up quite a bit with few orders.. So the first 2 batches went really well, it seems that there aren't many people left who want one anymore! Which can't be true! its great! .. ahem

Hi guys,

Since this will be the last batch I thought it is worth a thread. I'm selling kits that contain of a force sensor and electronics that allow the DIY enthusiast to make a brake pedal that has linear pedal force / calibration ratio, which is a big improvement over conventional pedals. In some cases its a HUGE improvement actually!

Some more info here:

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=239373

If at all interested, the link to AutoSimSport jan/feb 06 is expecially interesting (from page 47)

http://www.autosimsport.com/is ... osimsport_janfeb_2006.zip

The difference is especially astounding with downforce cars.. And I seem to recall LFS just having received a 'nice downforce car' ...

Prices have gone up a bit:

Soldered kit 75 euro
non soldered 65 euro
loadcell only 40 euro

and should one need some pots to go with them I can throw two spectrol 357 conductive plastic sealed pots in for 35..

Shipping is 6 euro within Holland, 10 euro within Europe, 12.50 for the rest of the world

/Niels

Last edited by Niels Heusinkveld, Tue, 2 May 2006 18:03.

Hiya John!!

good to see you're still around hotslapping like a 20 year old..

I like the idea of releasing a sim in stages. If they didn't do that they would not have the $ to develop.. and even if they would have money, we would not have a sim (S3) until 2012..

I like to pay the devs directly as with LFS / Nkpro. I haven't touched Nkpro after day 1 but I don't regret buying it. Guys like Stefano and Scawen deserve some of my $ even though their sims aren't 'there' yet.